Yet another of your kindly put reminders to look around us at the vast array of experiences out there! While I'm acutely aware that my dog-adoption story is not normal, I don't often think about the more common scenario where a strange person shows up at a shelter and takes the dog to a strange place to begin a strange, new life. That has to be jarring for everyone, even if it's ultimately good for everyone, too. As far as people who think dogs should "always take petting" because we take care of them...I wonder what kind of parents they are or would be to human children. Oy.
Thank you so, so much for saying so. Your thoughts always matter to me!! Jarring but ultimately good is a nice way to put it.
And yeah... I was so very put off by the comments on that particular reel (and I definitely spent too much time scrolling through them, oops). It just boggles my mind. Like KL said above, certainly we must be able to perform necessary handling tasks, and I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of domestic dogs enjoy some form of physical affection at least from their own family groups. But to expect that across the board?? Indiscriminately?? Like, as the "price" dogs pay for our care?? OY indeed!!
Thank you for taking the time to read! And I appreciate the all-caps emphasis, haha 😂
I am actually a big believer that critical anthropomorphism is good for our relationships, but it gets into a messy semantic territory where it's like what do we even define as anthropomorphizing? Because some people consider the attribution of almost *any* emotion to be anthropomorphism, which then gets into unproductive anthropodenial—like, humans are so unique and special and the only beings to feel complicated things or plan for the future or etc—I love the way Frans de Waal wrote about this in Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are. But really, if we're being fair to creatures, there are a ton of things that aren't just human emotions/attributes and are instead shared among social mammals. So in that sense, it isn't anthropomorphism... it's just trying to guess another animal's experience as accurately as we can based on the data we have.
Anyway. Such messiness. But I agree fully that true anthropomorphism—actually expecting dogs to act and understand the world just like humans do—is incredibly harmful!
The last bit: "true anthropomorphism—actually expecting dogs to act and understand the world just like humans do—is incredibly harmful" is my sentiment exactly. I would love to read more of Frans de Waal. I've only read Our Inner Ape so far.
I would give this piece five standing ovations if I could! I believe dogs are highly intelligent, intuitive beings. I believe they come to know who the safe person or people in their lives are. They do not automatically understand that you are their person now. None of my dogs who came to me as puppies straight from their breeders had that understanding right away, either (although my least trusting puppy of the three ended up giving that to me most fully and most immediately).
On the sentiment that dogs owe us their submission to physical contact on our terms - I’ve seen this before. It’s frankly bizarre to me, even more so when applied (as it was by the person I saw saying it) to someone else’s dog, applying to the poster, who was a total stranger to said dog. The entitlement is wild. It would be a bit wild coming from people who live with the dog, with exceptions in place for husbandry, and it’s utterly strange to me that someone would say that out loud about someone else’s dog.
This means the world from you! I love that you highlight this not only with older rescues but also puppies from ethical breeders, too. There's an adjustment period regardless—and I think too often people forget that our pets themselves don't have our same knowledge going into the situation, that this is now a forever-home we-are-partners kinda thing.
And oh gosh yes, bizarre is such a good word for the "you owe us submission" thing. It befuddles me! Especially, as you note, when it comes from complete strangers.
I think about this so much but don’t hear many people talking about it! I “rescued” a feral coonhound, and I joke that she developed Stockholm syndrome and manages to be a house dog now. But I still don’t think she’d choose to live with me - now 8 years in. I think she likes me and given her preferences, she would roam the city and come back to my place for dinner and a soft bed at night — unless she got busy. Night hunting is definitely one of her favorite activities and she’d pass up dinner and sleep for it. She definitely didn’t feel rescued, actively tried to escape, and still doesn’t view house dog life as free.
Have you ever read Merle’ Door? I think about that book a lot too. I read it years before I brought the coonhound home, and it always stuck with me. The author, Ted Kerasote, finds a dog in the wilderness on a rafting trip. The book outlines how he tried to give Merle as much freedom and choice as possible out of respect for the dog’s sentient nature. He starts by putting in a dog door - thus the name. But he wrote so many things that stay on my mind about how dogs have a rich life and social structure that doesn’t necessarily center humans
Oh how I love the nuance your personal experience brings to the discussion here! I feel like feral and free-roaming dogs (especially village dogs) are a particularly great example of how humans feeling like we're "rescuing" dogs doesn't always come across that way to the creatures themselves, even outside of just the initial adjustment / learning to trust period and into more of the everyday life compatibility part.
I actually haven't gotten around to Merle's Door yet, but I really need to—I keep seeing it around! I do tend to take the stance that many (not all but many, and I'd go so far as to say most?) dogs' social lives do center humans, a la Clive Wynne's Dog is Love (another great read if you're looking for one). Human-dog coevolution fascinates me, and I think it's incredible that we're starting to conduct more research showing that domestic dogs (but not wolves or more primitive breeds, pretty much falls along nice lines re degree of domestication) affiliate more readily with humans than any other species we've studied, and also than they do with members of their own species (like, many dogs will choose to interact with a person over another dog, something wolves do not do). But there's of course SO much complexity in that discussion, and every dog is an individual!
I have not read Dog is Love but added it to my TBR - thanks! I’m always looking for how to do better by her and worry about how many choices I’ve taken away from her. My other dog I raised from puppyhood and she has no concept of what she missed being a house dog, is content. But Emma just has all this experience and knowledge about the world and how to operate in it. Not enough to keep her safe in the city, but enough to have so many opinions and independent ideas - which is not a bad thing - just something I really have to remind myself to honor. I’m enjoying your perspective on all of it.
And I am so enjoying yours! This idea of honoring their perspectives and preferences is central to my life with Scout, too, and I love love love hearing you express it too. Especially with a dog like Emma who has that really broad range of experience to draw upon!
Yes! The relationship between humans and other animals is unique. If we choose to be responsible for another creature’s life that doesn’t give us the right to project our needs onto them.
Yet another of your kindly put reminders to look around us at the vast array of experiences out there! While I'm acutely aware that my dog-adoption story is not normal, I don't often think about the more common scenario where a strange person shows up at a shelter and takes the dog to a strange place to begin a strange, new life. That has to be jarring for everyone, even if it's ultimately good for everyone, too. As far as people who think dogs should "always take petting" because we take care of them...I wonder what kind of parents they are or would be to human children. Oy.
Thank you so, so much for saying so. Your thoughts always matter to me!! Jarring but ultimately good is a nice way to put it.
And yeah... I was so very put off by the comments on that particular reel (and I definitely spent too much time scrolling through them, oops). It just boggles my mind. Like KL said above, certainly we must be able to perform necessary handling tasks, and I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of domestic dogs enjoy some form of physical affection at least from their own family groups. But to expect that across the board?? Indiscriminately?? Like, as the "price" dogs pay for our care?? OY indeed!!
Dogs DO NOT UNDERSTAND HUMAN NUANCE! Anthropomorphizing animals is damaging to relationships. Thank you for writing this!
Thank you for taking the time to read! And I appreciate the all-caps emphasis, haha 😂
I am actually a big believer that critical anthropomorphism is good for our relationships, but it gets into a messy semantic territory where it's like what do we even define as anthropomorphizing? Because some people consider the attribution of almost *any* emotion to be anthropomorphism, which then gets into unproductive anthropodenial—like, humans are so unique and special and the only beings to feel complicated things or plan for the future or etc—I love the way Frans de Waal wrote about this in Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are. But really, if we're being fair to creatures, there are a ton of things that aren't just human emotions/attributes and are instead shared among social mammals. So in that sense, it isn't anthropomorphism... it's just trying to guess another animal's experience as accurately as we can based on the data we have.
Anyway. Such messiness. But I agree fully that true anthropomorphism—actually expecting dogs to act and understand the world just like humans do—is incredibly harmful!
Thank YOU for the nuanced and thoughtful reply!!
The last bit: "true anthropomorphism—actually expecting dogs to act and understand the world just like humans do—is incredibly harmful" is my sentiment exactly. I would love to read more of Frans de Waal. I've only read Our Inner Ape so far.
Thank you for sharing your writing with us. <3
I would give this piece five standing ovations if I could! I believe dogs are highly intelligent, intuitive beings. I believe they come to know who the safe person or people in their lives are. They do not automatically understand that you are their person now. None of my dogs who came to me as puppies straight from their breeders had that understanding right away, either (although my least trusting puppy of the three ended up giving that to me most fully and most immediately).
On the sentiment that dogs owe us their submission to physical contact on our terms - I’ve seen this before. It’s frankly bizarre to me, even more so when applied (as it was by the person I saw saying it) to someone else’s dog, applying to the poster, who was a total stranger to said dog. The entitlement is wild. It would be a bit wild coming from people who live with the dog, with exceptions in place for husbandry, and it’s utterly strange to me that someone would say that out loud about someone else’s dog.
This means the world from you! I love that you highlight this not only with older rescues but also puppies from ethical breeders, too. There's an adjustment period regardless—and I think too often people forget that our pets themselves don't have our same knowledge going into the situation, that this is now a forever-home we-are-partners kinda thing.
And oh gosh yes, bizarre is such a good word for the "you owe us submission" thing. It befuddles me! Especially, as you note, when it comes from complete strangers.
I think about this so much but don’t hear many people talking about it! I “rescued” a feral coonhound, and I joke that she developed Stockholm syndrome and manages to be a house dog now. But I still don’t think she’d choose to live with me - now 8 years in. I think she likes me and given her preferences, she would roam the city and come back to my place for dinner and a soft bed at night — unless she got busy. Night hunting is definitely one of her favorite activities and she’d pass up dinner and sleep for it. She definitely didn’t feel rescued, actively tried to escape, and still doesn’t view house dog life as free.
Have you ever read Merle’ Door? I think about that book a lot too. I read it years before I brought the coonhound home, and it always stuck with me. The author, Ted Kerasote, finds a dog in the wilderness on a rafting trip. The book outlines how he tried to give Merle as much freedom and choice as possible out of respect for the dog’s sentient nature. He starts by putting in a dog door - thus the name. But he wrote so many things that stay on my mind about how dogs have a rich life and social structure that doesn’t necessarily center humans
Oh how I love the nuance your personal experience brings to the discussion here! I feel like feral and free-roaming dogs (especially village dogs) are a particularly great example of how humans feeling like we're "rescuing" dogs doesn't always come across that way to the creatures themselves, even outside of just the initial adjustment / learning to trust period and into more of the everyday life compatibility part.
I actually haven't gotten around to Merle's Door yet, but I really need to—I keep seeing it around! I do tend to take the stance that many (not all but many, and I'd go so far as to say most?) dogs' social lives do center humans, a la Clive Wynne's Dog is Love (another great read if you're looking for one). Human-dog coevolution fascinates me, and I think it's incredible that we're starting to conduct more research showing that domestic dogs (but not wolves or more primitive breeds, pretty much falls along nice lines re degree of domestication) affiliate more readily with humans than any other species we've studied, and also than they do with members of their own species (like, many dogs will choose to interact with a person over another dog, something wolves do not do). But there's of course SO much complexity in that discussion, and every dog is an individual!
I have not read Dog is Love but added it to my TBR - thanks! I’m always looking for how to do better by her and worry about how many choices I’ve taken away from her. My other dog I raised from puppyhood and she has no concept of what she missed being a house dog, is content. But Emma just has all this experience and knowledge about the world and how to operate in it. Not enough to keep her safe in the city, but enough to have so many opinions and independent ideas - which is not a bad thing - just something I really have to remind myself to honor. I’m enjoying your perspective on all of it.
And I am so enjoying yours! This idea of honoring their perspectives and preferences is central to my life with Scout, too, and I love love love hearing you express it too. Especially with a dog like Emma who has that really broad range of experience to draw upon!
AMEN TO EVERYTHING IN HERE. A thousand times amen!!!
I am SO glad this resonated with you, my friend!! It means a lot. I know you get it far more than most. Send Luca and the turtles my love!
Yes! The relationship between humans and other animals is unique. If we choose to be responsible for another creature’s life that doesn’t give us the right to project our needs onto them.